Interesting observations, thanks for posting this. Another consideration:
At that time, only about 10% of people went to high school, so this test was focused towards a very elite subsection of the population, likely to determine whether the student was worth the rare investment of high school.
Have you ever actually taught say mathematics to an average 8 grader ? Because I'm a maths teacher and I'm pretty sure most of my high school students would not be able to pass the maths portion of the test.
And it's not like they learned different things either - proportions and percentages and basic arithmetic skills are still necessary for higher mathematics.
I would bet most kids today in US would fail this. And this is not a matter of and/or, kids should both be able to pass this test from 1912 and be thought many of the concepts taught today.
I agree with you - of course we need to look at usefulness of the test for people today - but I think it still highly relevant to be able to pass these examples.
You seem a little too optimistic in your analysis of the present day. You think most 8th graders would pass this now? It's likely the average 8th grader is nowhere close to his/her supposed grade level in math or writing. It would be nice to have a fundamental foundation of the facts before we - rightly - encourage the more engaging modalities you listed. Of course what I said about 8th grade deficiency is likely doubly true for seniors.
Good observation. Maybe I am reliant on experience in Central Europe. Yes, it is fair to have a better view, but I am not so convinced by the OECD data which is the only global view. Seniors is another story!
This entire essay smacks of ChatGPT or Claude prose. I’ve run it through an AI checker and it outputs as likely to have been AI-generated, which I believe. I don’t think his conclusions were something he put a lot of thought into, in other words.
Sorry to disappoint you - but as someone who teaches AI at university, I certainly do not use AI to generate essays. I am deeply concerned about the dumbing down of society and how AI will impact this, and a big proponent of writing to help clarify thinking, as you can see from most of my posts. And the conclusions are certainly my own.
With a degree in Applied Math, but no teaching certificate, I substitute taught basic and advanced Algebra in a Texas High School. Several students could not perform fifth grade arithmetic. Additionally, one-half of our population are ignorant of civics. For example Alabama Senator Tubberville said the three branches of government are the Executive, the House and the Senate. Now a Republican Project 2025 objective is to eliminate the Department of Education.
Yes, good points... we certainly need a better understanding of history. The great biographies and autobiographies of people from even 120 years ago bring so much to life about those times and make us better thinkers. I was certainly never taught civil government, yet it impacts so much of life.
I think the 1912 test was probably proper for the time. As you stated, is the current education developing kids for the future where AI, synthetic biology, robotics, and quantum computing will play a significant role? I think the answer is No. We are still mainly teaching for the industrial age and some technological changes we have seen in the last 25 years. However, I do not think it will get us far; even half of the things I mentioned, from AI to quantum computing, will become significant drivers for growth, and if work becomes obsolete for most people, how will we find purpose and happiness? Focusing on building a resilient generation that can avoid the mental health challenges we see right now is also essential in the future. Still, it will require a lot more involvement from parents since they have a role to play in education and developing a healthy and resilient next generation. We cannot assume that the education system will be able to care for it without parents' involvement, but that would require sacrifices. Are we, as parents, willing to do it?
Very astute points - for sure current education is not developing kids for the future. And you hit on my biggest concern, job obsolescence. This was a part of Dario Amodei's recent essay - the part he could not make a suggestion for. Absolutely we need to build in resilience - think of the prolific people from the 19th and early 20th century, rose from absolute poverty (Cajal, HG Wells, John Snow - and many more), the traits which they had were curiosity, resilience, cooperative mindset and passion for learning... we certainly need to nurture this as parents and educators. It strikes me that governments have their head in the clouds and very little is being done to foster the much needed skills and character traits.
The basic skills reflected in the test, are prerequisites for the study of subjects for the future. Language arts are necessary to communicate. Math and science are absolutely necessary. That said, for those who won't be pursuing higher education, the skills in that test are life skills required to function in society. Many cannot balance a checkbook or create a simple budget.
Today's parents cannot permit their children to be taught anything, because they know that if that were to happen, the children would reject the parents' worldviews, with utter horror and vengeful bitterness. That is what must be prevented at any cost, and that is why schools are nothing more than day care, and deliberately under-resourced so as to create an environment that is self-discrediting.
...Ah yes indeed, the grand conspiracy to ensure children remain blissfully ignorant while keeping parents comfortably ensconced in their fragile worldview bubbles. After all, an informed and empowered generation might actually change things, and we certainly wouldn't want that :-)
Am I the only one who noticed the spelling errors? The ones the leaped out at me were "dodr" "secrate" and "assasinated". Why is there a comma between "Magnetic" and "Telegraph"? Also, the less said about the typography, especially the numbers in the math section, the better.
Otherwise, it's a reasonable test and like many of that era focused on the basics. As best I can tell, modern schools don't teach grammar. At my old school, it was dropped some time between my time and three years later when my sister wasn't exposed to it. Same school, no grammar. The high school kids we tutored, otherwise fairly bright, didn't know what a verb was. We had to teach that stuff.
Thank you for stopping by. On Hacker News and Marginal Revolution, there was quite a lot of comments. Many spotted the spelling errors. Agree wholeheartedly on the typography!
You are right, I went to a grammar school and they stopped teaching grammar in the 1980s (UK) ... it is certainly a handicap!
Interesting observations, thanks for posting this. Another consideration:
At that time, only about 10% of people went to high school, so this test was focused towards a very elite subsection of the population, likely to determine whether the student was worth the rare investment of high school.
That is a scary low number, I had not considered that. Thank you - I should have checked. Will look into it more.
Have you ever actually taught say mathematics to an average 8 grader ? Because I'm a maths teacher and I'm pretty sure most of my high school students would not be able to pass the maths portion of the test.
And it's not like they learned different things either - proportions and percentages and basic arithmetic skills are still necessary for higher mathematics.
So your experience shows that we are sliding?
I've done comparisons for the French baccalauréat, high school final exam. The difference between 1990 and 2020 is quite striking.
Yes, this is my belief too - and a concern we must strive to revers and improve. As AI systems become prevalent it could get much, much worse.
Do yall have an example test from 2024?
Looking into it - but not yet.
I would bet most kids today in US would fail this. And this is not a matter of and/or, kids should both be able to pass this test from 1912 and be thought many of the concepts taught today.
I agree with you - of course we need to look at usefulness of the test for people today - but I think it still highly relevant to be able to pass these examples.
You seem a little too optimistic in your analysis of the present day. You think most 8th graders would pass this now? It's likely the average 8th grader is nowhere close to his/her supposed grade level in math or writing. It would be nice to have a fundamental foundation of the facts before we - rightly - encourage the more engaging modalities you listed. Of course what I said about 8th grade deficiency is likely doubly true for seniors.
Good observation. Maybe I am reliant on experience in Central Europe. Yes, it is fair to have a better view, but I am not so convinced by the OECD data which is the only global view. Seniors is another story!
This entire essay smacks of ChatGPT or Claude prose. I’ve run it through an AI checker and it outputs as likely to have been AI-generated, which I believe. I don’t think his conclusions were something he put a lot of thought into, in other words.
Sorry to disappoint you - but as someone who teaches AI at university, I certainly do not use AI to generate essays. I am deeply concerned about the dumbing down of society and how AI will impact this, and a big proponent of writing to help clarify thinking, as you can see from most of my posts. And the conclusions are certainly my own.
With a degree in Applied Math, but no teaching certificate, I substitute taught basic and advanced Algebra in a Texas High School. Several students could not perform fifth grade arithmetic. Additionally, one-half of our population are ignorant of civics. For example Alabama Senator Tubberville said the three branches of government are the Executive, the House and the Senate. Now a Republican Project 2025 objective is to eliminate the Department of Education.
There are 2 sections that students need today. Civil government & history. Two subjects that are sorely needed.
Yes, good points... we certainly need a better understanding of history. The great biographies and autobiographies of people from even 120 years ago bring so much to life about those times and make us better thinkers. I was certainly never taught civil government, yet it impacts so much of life.
Interesting post!
My two cents:
I think the 1912 test was probably proper for the time. As you stated, is the current education developing kids for the future where AI, synthetic biology, robotics, and quantum computing will play a significant role? I think the answer is No. We are still mainly teaching for the industrial age and some technological changes we have seen in the last 25 years. However, I do not think it will get us far; even half of the things I mentioned, from AI to quantum computing, will become significant drivers for growth, and if work becomes obsolete for most people, how will we find purpose and happiness? Focusing on building a resilient generation that can avoid the mental health challenges we see right now is also essential in the future. Still, it will require a lot more involvement from parents since they have a role to play in education and developing a healthy and resilient next generation. We cannot assume that the education system will be able to care for it without parents' involvement, but that would require sacrifices. Are we, as parents, willing to do it?
Very astute points - for sure current education is not developing kids for the future. And you hit on my biggest concern, job obsolescence. This was a part of Dario Amodei's recent essay - the part he could not make a suggestion for. Absolutely we need to build in resilience - think of the prolific people from the 19th and early 20th century, rose from absolute poverty (Cajal, HG Wells, John Snow - and many more), the traits which they had were curiosity, resilience, cooperative mindset and passion for learning... we certainly need to nurture this as parents and educators. It strikes me that governments have their head in the clouds and very little is being done to foster the much needed skills and character traits.
The basic skills reflected in the test, are prerequisites for the study of subjects for the future. Language arts are necessary to communicate. Math and science are absolutely necessary. That said, for those who won't be pursuing higher education, the skills in that test are life skills required to function in society. Many cannot balance a checkbook or create a simple budget.
Great points. I always tell colleagues our job as educators is to prepare young people to function in society...
Today's parents cannot permit their children to be taught anything, because they know that if that were to happen, the children would reject the parents' worldviews, with utter horror and vengeful bitterness. That is what must be prevented at any cost, and that is why schools are nothing more than day care, and deliberately under-resourced so as to create an environment that is self-discrediting.
...Ah yes indeed, the grand conspiracy to ensure children remain blissfully ignorant while keeping parents comfortably ensconced in their fragile worldview bubbles. After all, an informed and empowered generation might actually change things, and we certainly wouldn't want that :-)
Am I the only one who noticed the spelling errors? The ones the leaped out at me were "dodr" "secrate" and "assasinated". Why is there a comma between "Magnetic" and "Telegraph"? Also, the less said about the typography, especially the numbers in the math section, the better.
Otherwise, it's a reasonable test and like many of that era focused on the basics. As best I can tell, modern schools don't teach grammar. At my old school, it was dropped some time between my time and three years later when my sister wasn't exposed to it. Same school, no grammar. The high school kids we tutored, otherwise fairly bright, didn't know what a verb was. We had to teach that stuff.
Thank you for stopping by. On Hacker News and Marginal Revolution, there was quite a lot of comments. Many spotted the spelling errors. Agree wholeheartedly on the typography!
You are right, I went to a grammar school and they stopped teaching grammar in the 1980s (UK) ... it is certainly a handicap!
You might be interested in this paper:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00220670209598797
Thank you, I will download at university tomorrow. The abstract seems very interesting.