For no particular reason, I read Discourses first and Prince afterward, and I have to say the idealism about republicanism Discourses is reputed to have doesn't really come through. It is an instruction manual in appropriate ruthlessness for those with power in a republic as much as it is a depiction of the results; more understated than The Prince but with the same philosophy of what works over what is right. Perhaps this is an artifact of a weak translation.
Great comment thank you. Your point about Discourses being an "instruction manual in appropriate ruthlessness" is an interesting take, Rousseau thought it was more likely to be Machiavelli's 'real' philosophy! Machiavelli does seem to have 'a pragmatic streak, valuing effectiveness over moral purity', which, I think, aligns with the philosophy you identified.
Thank you for posting. The Prince has indeed been used throughout history for many diverse reasons.
What I find is missed in dispatches is that Machiavelli wrote the book after his internment in an Italian prison and using the lessons he learned there.
In doing this he was viewing humans as not being inherently good (and behaving like prisoners), the same way as any systems are based on the 'prisoners dilemma'.
Plato and Confucius both viewed people as inherently good but needed to be educated as such.
For me if we view the world as Machiavelli did, we will never get out of the loop of feeling like we live in a world of prisoners and deceit.
I believe Plato and Confucius had a way out of this loop and something we need to bring back into focus, obviously for the times we live in.
Thank you Vincent. You are absolutely right about the internment, I edited that bit out for 'brevity' - but it is of importance to get the whole picture. Nice reminder on Plato and Confucius. We should follow that loop.
You’re welcome. Prison in Italy is the backdrop where he formed his worldview for the book so I felt it’s important to include.
And yes I’ve researched Plato and Confucius with a view to developing a program for a new human. There is an issue though of culture and I’ve had to rework it based on this. Not quite there yet but it’s quite exciting.
Excellent post! You’ve convinced me to read The Prince, which has been on my list for years. Previously, I thought that since I had read Robert Greene’s The 48 Laws of Power and Carlo M. Cipolla’s The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity covered The Prince themes, but your post has shown me that I should read Machiavelli’s book to understand this topic better. I will put it on my 2025 reading list.
I believe leaders don’t need to act like foxes in most cases, but they must understand the fox’s cunning to protect themselves and those they lead from manipulation. Similarly, being a lion means having the courage to take decisive action or stand firm when necessary to move an organization forward. After reading The Prince, I may gain a better or even different perspective on the roles of the fox and the lion.
The Prince is one of those to go back to time and time again, look forward to hearing what you think. You definitely have a solid grasp of the lion and fox.
For no particular reason, I read Discourses first and Prince afterward, and I have to say the idealism about republicanism Discourses is reputed to have doesn't really come through. It is an instruction manual in appropriate ruthlessness for those with power in a republic as much as it is a depiction of the results; more understated than The Prince but with the same philosophy of what works over what is right. Perhaps this is an artifact of a weak translation.
Great comment thank you. Your point about Discourses being an "instruction manual in appropriate ruthlessness" is an interesting take, Rousseau thought it was more likely to be Machiavelli's 'real' philosophy! Machiavelli does seem to have 'a pragmatic streak, valuing effectiveness over moral purity', which, I think, aligns with the philosophy you identified.
Regarding translation, that’s a possibility!
Thank you for posting. The Prince has indeed been used throughout history for many diverse reasons.
What I find is missed in dispatches is that Machiavelli wrote the book after his internment in an Italian prison and using the lessons he learned there.
In doing this he was viewing humans as not being inherently good (and behaving like prisoners), the same way as any systems are based on the 'prisoners dilemma'.
Plato and Confucius both viewed people as inherently good but needed to be educated as such.
For me if we view the world as Machiavelli did, we will never get out of the loop of feeling like we live in a world of prisoners and deceit.
I believe Plato and Confucius had a way out of this loop and something we need to bring back into focus, obviously for the times we live in.
Thank you Vincent. You are absolutely right about the internment, I edited that bit out for 'brevity' - but it is of importance to get the whole picture. Nice reminder on Plato and Confucius. We should follow that loop.
You’re welcome. Prison in Italy is the backdrop where he formed his worldview for the book so I felt it’s important to include.
And yes I’ve researched Plato and Confucius with a view to developing a program for a new human. There is an issue though of culture and I’ve had to rework it based on this. Not quite there yet but it’s quite exciting.
Have you come across the writing of Yu Ying-shih on Confucianism? See his wikipedia entry for background under "writing" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Ying-shih
Look forward to hearing more on your program when you are ready.
No, I hadn't thanks, I've been focusing on the Confucius - Mencius side. I will look him up. And yes will keep you posted.
Excellent post! You’ve convinced me to read The Prince, which has been on my list for years. Previously, I thought that since I had read Robert Greene’s The 48 Laws of Power and Carlo M. Cipolla’s The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity covered The Prince themes, but your post has shown me that I should read Machiavelli’s book to understand this topic better. I will put it on my 2025 reading list.
I believe leaders don’t need to act like foxes in most cases, but they must understand the fox’s cunning to protect themselves and those they lead from manipulation. Similarly, being a lion means having the courage to take decisive action or stand firm when necessary to move an organization forward. After reading The Prince, I may gain a better or even different perspective on the roles of the fox and the lion.
Thank you - It is a while since I read Greene, although I watched some of his interviews in 2024. Cipolla is an important read - I wrote about his work here - https://onepercentrule.substack.com/p/stupidity-our-biggest-threat.
The Prince is one of those to go back to time and time again, look forward to hearing what you think. You definitely have a solid grasp of the lion and fox.